Breakdown - A Gravity Forms Podcast

Countdown: [00:00:00] Five, four, three, two, one.

Matt: Hey, David, welcome to the breakdown podcast. Yeah. Thanks, Matt. It's a beer. Uh, interested to dive into agency life with you and what's happening at Vaulted Oak and WordPress, your whole take on things. I am a. Recovering agency owner many years ago. I ran an agency for a little over a decade and then Started having kids.

I was like, oh I need a real job now like I need something that I can Survive with and sort of take a step back from the stresses of running an agency We were just chatting in the green room before we hit record No, the co founder of Peter had him on a previous podcast that I did agency life is [00:01:00] Pretty wild.

What's, what's your, what's your day to day in agency life at Vaulted Oak? And then we're going to dive into some of, uh, uh, you know, running an agency and, and what your agency outlook is, but what do you do day to day at Vaulted Oak?

David: Yeah, absolutely. Happy to share. And yeah, agency. Uh, agency life, it's, you know, I don't, I don't have kids yet, so it's one where I feel like it's, uh, you know, I can put more time and energy into it, but I understand when those other priorities would pop up, then you'd have to look at it and be like, yeah, okay, maybe I don't need to be up at this hour of the night doing X or Y or Z.

Uh, right now I enjoy it, but, you know, that will probably change. Um, But in the meantime, no, I really enjoy the day to day. Uh, you know, I'm the account director here at vaulted oak. So, uh, handling the internal client, stakeholder management, external partnerships, opportunities like this, you know, collaborating with other organizations, uh, you know, podcasts, interviews, um, you know, networking, uh, you know, vendor partners as well.

So a [00:02:00] lot of relationship building, yeah. Brainstorming and, you know, focusing really on building that relationship and that trust, which, as you mentioned. You know, you had met Peter years ago and had him on a different podcast, you know, that's really the ethos and MO of Barrel Holdings is really about delivering that value and, um, you know, just long term, you know, long term trust, long term partnership, because even if it's a slower burn, it definitely pays off in the end, so that's what I dedicate my, my time doing, day in, day out.

Matt: We'll unpack sort of the Uh, maybe Barrel as a whole, Barrel Holdings, this is one of the more interesting concepts that Peter and I used to chat about or had chatted about many years ago, is sort of breaking apart the different layers of an agency and instead of having maybe this one agency that does it all, in Barrel's sense, you have 7, uh, no, sorry, you have, yes, 7 different sort of like brands under Barrel.

Help the [00:03:00] listener understand how vaulted oak slots into the rest of it Do you do like cross communication with the brands and say oh by the way? You've done business with with vaulted oak mrs. Customer We also have this you know brand over here that can help you in these areas Is it as simple as that or does vaulted oak sort of operate in its own?

Uh, sort of silo away from everything else.

David: I'd say it's a little bit of both and kind of the best of both worlds. Like we're definitely independent, uh, and I'll explain how that came to be. And then, yeah, simple as that in terms of the collaboration, sending a Slack message to another one of our, uh, you know, sibling agency, you know, owners or co founders.

Email introduction. Hey, we have this prospect that came across our desk that we think they'd be a better fit for you or in our discussions with the client or a prospect, or let's say to become a client, and then we learn about other areas of their business. Oh, okay. Actually, we have some, you know, recommended partners.

And for that as well. And so it starts with kind [00:04:00] of the concentric circle of, you know, our sibling agencies, and then we have, let's say, cousin agencies and second cousin agencies. So of course we, you know, we seek to keep it in the family at first, but we also, you know, the barrel holdings companies don't exhaust all capabilities.

And so we want to find the right fit to begin with. So vaulted Oak. Yeah, we were spun off from barrel back in 2021. Uh, barrel has been around for almost 20 years now, uh, as a, you know, an e commerce firm and digital agency. And so back in 2021, there was a need to create a separate, you know, department, separate entity to handle the ongoing support and maintenance, right?

The post launch. I've worked in other agencies and actually have helped stand up support and maintenance divisions within those agencies, showing a need for, you know, the allocated resources for post launch. Because it's a very different life cycle approach, uh, mental bandwidth of a start to finish build.

And post [00:05:00] launch ongoing support. Um, so it was really cool to come in contact with Vaulted Oak and Beryl and see a company that had actually become not only spun off internally as a department, but then its own entity. Um, so it was just a natural fit. And so that's how we slot in. We handle, you know, we do maybe a couple start to finish builds every quarter, but really the majority of our work is what happens after you launch a website.

And that's where we provide that support. And so, it's really great, we focus, our main platforms are Shopify, Wordpress, makes it very easy. Uh, and then that way for Beryl or the other companies within the Beryl Holdings Network, when they know of a company that maybe doesn't need a brand new website, because they just built one, but they just need some You know, occasional ticket support.

That's what we're here for.

Matt: So one of the things I think is really interesting here is, I think a lot of agencies, I'll paint this picture, then you, you, I'll draw [00:06:00] the outline. You can fill it in if I'm right or wrong. But I think a lot of agencies, you know, who are focused in on WordPress, like a lot of the folks listening to this podcast, a lot of folks who use Gravity Forms are, are obviously primarily WordPress driven agencies.

They'll sort of hedge the technology bet, uh, with let's say maybe You know, another, uh, open source, maybe more static framework, right? Uh, they're building things, you know, with Next. js and, um, you know, Tailwind doing things like more static and, and that's sort of, they hedge against the WordPress thing just a little bit.

Oh, the client doesn't fit the perfect WordPress mold. Oh, we get this thing over here. We can kind of solve it with, I think Barrel's approach is a bit, is how I see it is. Oh, you want Webflow, we have a whole agency, you know, like it's not, we don't have like a specialist Webflow person on our WordPress team.

We have a whole other agency or Shopify or a Framer agency I see with Bolster. Talk about that. Is there ever a, a handoff where a client comes into maybe say [00:07:00] BX studio, which handles your Webflow stuff and they go, Oh, you know what? We actually. We actually want WordPress and then they come over to your side or vice versa.

How does that work?

David: Yeah, I think that's pretty common. And you know, from your experience with agency life, you could, you know, that when a prospect reaches out, right, when a company reaches out with their initial requirements, that's not always what ends up. As the actual project or, you know, uh, S O W at the end.

Right. And that's something that we really take to heart is defining those needs, really understanding, okay, why are you doing this to begin with? And sometimes we'll straight up tell them, well, actually you don't need. Our services. This is not actually a great fit, and we're not going to try to just squeeze you into it just because to have some revenue or to work with you.

Let's actually find out what you're looking for, what you're actually looking to achieve, because a fair amount of the time, not all the time, the companies is. You know, they don't spend as much time in the actual tech and solutions [00:08:00] as we do. Right? So they, they look at a problem, especially small business owners or, you know, uh, Shopify clients.

And they say, Oh, this is what we need to do. And these are the options that we know are available. And then they'll come to us and we'll actually explore a little deeper of like, okay, well, what are you actually looking to achieve? What are the objectives and let's find a reasonable solution rather than just approaching it as, okay, you come to us here, our services, and then now we'll.

Try to fit you into our services. So yeah, it happens quite often, um, that someone will come to us or BX and through that conversation, actually find out that they're a better fit for, you know, Us or one of the other agencies and then we'll make that that recommendation. And so yeah, and I think that's also what helps too in our specialization with each agencies that were very clear with our core capabilities.

Of course, there's always outlier cases and there's always opportunities where maybe we'll pick something up like a Next. js or maybe a one off Drupal site. But again, that's really because we want to do the work [00:09:00] and we have that. You know, a team member or, you know, the ability and the chops to do so, but we're not seeking to make that a vertical or actually replicate that long term.

So there's always. You know, some gray cases that will pick up, but I think it's really helpful for us and, uh, the industry when we're very straightforward about this is what we specialize in. And if you aren't looking for that, we can point you in the right direction.

Matt: I want to zoom out and talk about operating in the particular environments that you work in WordPress and Shopify. Vaulted Oak is lucky enough to serve both crowds, right? WordPress and Shopify though. That's always a, uh, I don't want to say heated debate, but in the WordPress, you know, community and quite often WordPress growth is compared only next to Shopify as the next CMS of, of, you know, bigger potential growth year after year.

Is there, is there a way for you to illustrate what it's [00:10:00] like working in? WordPress environment versus a Shopify, like, do you get more commercial support from Shopify? You have somebody you can call on the Shopify side versus WordPress where you're like, no, we have to go and figure this out. Is there any kind of, uh, compare and contrast that you can do from

David: those two worlds?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think to start with, we recommend the platforms based, kind of what I said before, on need. Right, you know, so we don't have a preference of, oh, use Shopify or use WordPress. In our experience, we find that e commerce platforms and companies, for what a lot of them do, we would recommend Shopify.

We, we have worked with other companies on WordPress and just based on their setup, okay, yeah, WordPress site with, uh, you know, WooCommerce or You know, similar, you know, offering. And so we'll just, again, look at what they're actually looking for and then point them in the right direction. We, we don't really care so much which one they use, as long as it's a good fit for them.

[00:11:00] Um, and so, yeah, I think the two worlds are cool and interesting to straddle. I'd say Shopify, the framework, just based on the commercial nature of it. And the growth of the company, all of the, you know, investment Shopify has made to other vendor partners in terms of Shopify apps and third party platforms definitely makes it a more startup ecosystem, uh, which is neat.

And there's definitely. More support there it from the sense of like these vendors all have a lot of teams because they've gone through some level of Funding and you know, it's easier to contact them or you've seen them at event or they're hosting an event, right? So it's just more built out, but that's just because of the nature of the commercial But in the WordPress, it's also really neat because I was at WordCamp US in September of 2024 in Portland.

That's where I met Mike from Gravity Forms and Carol from Yoast and how we ended up connecting. And it was [00:12:00] also really cool to see the open source, collaborative, more independent nature of WordPress as well. Which, It doesn't make it less support. It just makes it a different type of support. So I think both are pretty unique.

I'm glad I get to be in both because with the WordPress, uh, we also get to work with a lot of nonprofit clients, which is a very different pace. And so it's actually a, it's a nice mix to be able to work with, let's just say straight e commerce, you know, Very simple. They want to sell, retail, D2C, etc. And then the WordPress sides, which it's a little funkier, you know, non profits, different pace, a little bit more artsy.

And I think that plays into the WordPress community at large. So, I hope that's helpful, but it's, it's pretty cool to see. And, you know, it's, uh, almost like being, I don't know, having different friends, you know. Maybe you're not going to always There's one friend that you know you'll go to a sports game with, and another friend you're like, No, we're gonna play board games.

So it's just, that's, that's how I'd relate it.

Matt: Yeah, that's a good way to break it down. [00:13:00] Uh, I'm curious, is, you mentioned before, look, we're really not trying to push either technology, Shopify or let's say WooCommerce, but is there, but you said if it fits the client, is there a particular area where WordPress or WooCommerce fits the client?

Like you would say, Oh yeah, you're, you're looking for this. You definitely need WooCommerce and what is that? If you can, if you can share. I

David: think it's more when they need WordPress, like that they're not a good fit for Shopify, but they still have some e commerce functionality and they're not looking to migrate to Shopify.

Um, let's say, you know, we worked with an educational organization the past year, helped them redesign and rebuild their site. There was no need for them to be on Shopify because the majority of their content was information, articles, events. The usual kind of nonprofit or WordPress makeup of a site, but then they also had this e commerce piece, right?

So it doesn't make sense for them to go to Shopify just based on the functionality there that they wouldn't be You using or taking advantage of and [00:14:00] again, it wouldn't really fit that platform And so that would be an example of okay. You're an organization That has some e commerce functionality, but it's not your main one, then let's go with WordPress.

And then, you know, with a WooCommerce. And then similarly, we've actually worked with clients on Shopify who have deactivated their e commerce function, but still remain on Shopify because it doesn't make sense at that point to migrate, say to WordPress or a different CMS also because they might reactivate the e commerce function in the future.

So I hope those are kind of two examples that illustrate like just. The different cases that we deal with and when it's actually so nice that there's so many people creating. You know, these platforms and technologies because it makes it easy for us to be able to say, Oh, okay, here, here are your options and, you know, which direction do you want to go in?

Matt: Sort of hinted at some of the stack that you like working with, obviously on the WordPress side, like we've mentioned WooCommerce, we mentioned, uh, Yost, you mentioned, obviously you're here for, with Gravity Forms or because, uh, you introduced [00:15:00] us with Gravity Forms, but is there ever something in the WordPress side where you're kind of just like, Hmm, you know, that other platform, that, that web flow or that Shopify has this thing that's It's pretty cool.

Like, is there anything on the other side of the fence where you're ever like, man, I really wish WordPress had that thing over that that other team gets to use that we don't get to use on the WordPress side?

David: Yeah. I mean, I'd say just, I mean, Shopify in terms of its ability to, you know, spin up product pages and you know, the advances they've made over the past year with checkout, I think that's really the, a defining feature for them that just makes it so seamless for people to.

Interact with the products and then check out. I'd say that's, that's probably the main one, you know, theme wise, you know, there's, uh, various to choose from, but that's similar to, to WordPress. I think just the out of the box solution nature of Shopify is what has made, you know, what's grown [00:16:00] it into the company it is today.

And I think the, uh, the product pages and checkout functionality, they've really improved it. And it's, it's seamless, right? The one page checkout and the checkout extensions that they've created.

Matt: I've often heard like, Oh, yeah, it's very, you know, it's so much easier and so much more, let's say, affordable to use Shopify, but I feel like once you start stacking up, like the little apps and stuff that Shopify requires a store to build, you're, you're, you're raising that monthly bill pretty quickly.

Like it looks, you know, Hey, 29 bucks a month. You Shopify account, you know, and then people say, well, you have to buy all these plugins for WordPress, but you know, you start playing with Shopify. quickly tick the box of, of that monthly bill going up and you haven't even started to sell anything yet.

You're just setting it up. Any compare contrast on like, uh, Shopify apps versus the world of WordPress plugins like work, uh, Gravity Forms is only a couple hundred bucks a year if you have the elite license and you [00:17:00] can do so much with it. Any thoughts on pricing models, Shopify versus WordPress?

David: Yeah, I think you make a good point.

A point, and I think that's something that we talk to very transparently with our, our clients about is just evaluating when it's right to say, start with Shopify app, when it's right to maybe grow to that next level of that app, and then maybe when it's right to actually build something custom. So that you're less reliant on that app in the long term, right?

But that's all at the life cycle and the stage of the business and what they want in terms of investment Overall because let's say they want to come to us with custom work Sure It might be a larger lift But then they own it in the sense of they're able to make sure that if that app is sunset Starting tomorrow, they're not affecting and then, you know, it's not affecting them and then having to actually scramble, right?

But again, there's some of our clients that that's fine. You know, they, they use only a couple apps. They don't need the really advanced versions and therefore something custom wouldn't be right for them. Um, so I think [00:18:00] that is a good point and it's something that we just inform our clients about. They're like, okay, it's good to have all these apps and this is something a huge benefit of Shopify, but also think about it from the price standpoint and also from the, the performance standpoint, right?

In terms of the site speed of having all of these apps on the site, right? So it's something you have to be careful of and be Choice in terms of the decisions you're making wordpress plugins. Yeah, I find that they're again because of the nature of the wordpress community Feel like there are possibly more options for and flexibility with within that in terms of the Just the creation of, of these tools and these technologies.

And so that's what I find that for our team, when we're looking at solutions for WordPress plugins, it seems to be, again, because a lot of our WordPress clients are nonprofit, doesn't often seem to be an issue where it becomes a matter of price. So it's, that's what I would, I would say. You know, just to [00:19:00] illustrate the different worlds of, of plugins and apps.

And at the same token, Shopify, as I think I mentioned before, has invested in a handful of these apps. So, you know, then at least with these, that there's going to be some long term viability and stability, right? And then you can rely on them. So depends, you know, I sound like a broken record, but depends on, you know, the life of the business, where it's at and you know, the proper recommendation therein.

But WordPress has been really, really easy for us to to find plugins that that work and work quickly and then replace if need be. And. at a low price point, especially for our nonprofits.

Matt: Yeah. Well, let's talk about a plugin that's been around for almost 15 years and has been reliable in that space. And that is, uh, gravity forms.

You've been mentioning a lot of nonprofit work is, is that where gravity forms sits really well for you and your clients building out nonprofit donation pages, user registration, membership, how do you leverage gravity forms or how do your clients leverage gravity forms and some of the solutions that you're putting together?

David: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So [00:20:00] when, uh, we were, you know, looking at. You know, collaboration with Gravity Forms and, um, seeing how many of our clients used Gravity Forms. Of course, you know, the WordPress side of the business, you know, majority of them are the non profits. We do have some for profit. Uh, WordPress clients that also use it, but a majority is non profits, which I think is interesting, uh, having worked, uh, previously in non profit sector, both with a non profit organization or two, and then with agency dedicated for non profits, they really don't have the time to explore more.

A lot of different options, and so they really need something reliable, and when they find something reliable, it probably will be like a decade or two before they revisit that, right? Just based on, you know, board approval and everything. And so, yeah, I mean, I'd say a clip probably above 90 percent of our non profit clients use Gravity Forms.

And exactly what you mentioned, it's user registration, email capture, donation pages, [00:21:00] and just making sure that they have a reliable way. To, you know, receive information from their users, from their volunteers, um, et cetera. So, yeah, those are the main, main use cases and we're, this quarter we're, uh, gonna start detailing and highlighting some of those case studies, um, some of the more typical ones and then some more atypical ones, uh, and also as an effort to illustrate to our nonprofit clients that maybe there's functionality with GravitaForms that you're not yet using, right?

And you can expand that would actually help your operations, so. Yeah. Excited for that.

Matt: You know, I, I'm part of a, a small nonprofit that my, uh, best friend started a little over a year ago. And of course sites built in, uh, WordPress using gravity forms for like the donation pages and such, but that market.

And I love your opinion on this too. Uh, but that market is, wow. He, they have received so, you know, there's so many like donation platforms, you know, donation for sports platforms, donations, like regular donation platforms. [00:22:00] We run this three on three basketball tournament, right? Every year. And with the specific requirements that my friend, uh, my friend and his wife, uh, both lead this nonprofit and the way that they do like registration.

And have kids come in and parents can request certain things like there's no, there's no nonprofit, no, no, like out of the box donation platform. That's going to do this, these requirements would never get it. You're not going to find it. But the ones that do sort of like cater to the space that you could semi like massage to do it, you're spending for a nonprofit, you're spending like a few hundred bucks a month, nevermind like the transaction fees and their fees that they keep.

And your mind just looks at that and you go, I can do this. With gravity forms and you, you want to like tell the world about it, but still there's like, there's a complexity there, right? There's these, these folks who run these nonprofits, most of them are not technical and they're not going to sit down and like.

Build a solution with gravity forms and implement it. Uh, so it takes folks like you and I, um, you know, to do this for them, but [00:23:00] wow, there's so much you can tailor to in a nonprofit world with gravity forms and like the specific fields and flows and, you know, conditional logic and all this stuff where other platforms either can't solve it or they try to solve it and they just.

Want loads and loads of money for a nonprofit, you know, to implement it. I don't know if you have any kind of story or first world experience with that gravity form solving something, but your thoughts on, on just like the donation platforms

David: at large. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that's a good point. I think it's also a reflection of the nonprofit sector and just changes over the past, you know, decade and a half.

And with the increase of. These various technologies and just the shift to digital, a lot of these platforms are a little bit archaic and bulky and expensive, right? And so it's one of those, it's been in place, uh, the nonprofits are overly reliant on it and there aren't necessarily a lot of, again, an out of the box solution that does what [00:24:00] they need because similar to the businesses that we work with, nonprofits also have, you know, various needs.

You know, some are focused on donations in terms of financial, some are focused on donations in terms of material, some are other focused on just education, brand awareness. I mean, they've got all a spectrum of call to actions, right? And so, um, I think like you said, they don't have the team to look at these options, explore, and even if they did have the bandwidth to implement them internally, right?

And so that's why we also provide a support, not just from the technical side, but also from the consultative. Aspect of actually being able to like, you know, guide them and also, you know, uh, provide them with the insight so it makes it easy as easy as possible on their end. Um, but yeah, in terms of gravity forms, even from the agency that I worked at previously that dedicated, uh, to nonprofit work, you know, countless, uh, times where that was our.

That was our go to. Um, you know, I think in terms of a [00:25:00] migration or a shift, there was a couple, it's been a couple years, I don't remember the exact details of it, um, but we were looking and it actually achieved the process of going away from some of these larger, you know, expensive platforms that maybe served a purpose at the time, but no longer going forward.

So that was, that was helpful. And then, yeah, currently right now, I mean, I don't think there's a single client that we have with Gravity Forms that. We have really an, an issue with, or that it's, you know, an obstacle. In fact, it's something that they know, which for all businesses, but especially nonprofits, it's just that peace of mind.

They know they don't have to think about it. And that is, you know, the most valuable investment in my opinion for business. I

Matt: want to close it off by just talking about vaulted Oaks pricing plans and your approach to, to business, um, for the, um, you know, we're at the start of literally the second day into 2025.

listening to this who's a freelancer or a little boutique agency and they're setting their plans, uh, forward for growing [00:26:00] their agency in 2025. I'm not saying they should copy you because they can't, but I like the business model, uh, that vaulted oak has sort of put out on the homepage. It's vaulted hyphen.

Oak dot com. If you want to check it out, or if you just want to partner with vaulted oak, you can go to that website too and reach out for many, many years. I mean, I think anyone listening to this who has been around wordpress for as long as I have, certainly as long as gravity forms as we remember the days of wordpress support companies being like, Hey, Uh, buy an hour, you know, every single month, uh, you know, tick the little box and you can buy a certain amount of hours and the price goes up every month.

I like how you all have this set up, uh, on the homepage. You have quarterly and then the hours that you can buy quarterly, um, and it's just set in stone, you know, quarterly six month minimum contract, two quarters, uh, with no rollover hours. Uh, Talk to us about like that approach and how does that work for, uh, I assume everything's working well for you.

But I think a lot of people when they get into the game, they go, Oh man, [00:27:00] I have to sell minimum hours. Like how is the customer going to approve of this? How does it? How does that perceive with your customers when you walk in with a quote for minimum hours every quarter?

David: Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, in our approach is, is again, that lens of longterm, right?

And so with the quarterly plans, it's providing a platform for, okay, well, we want to get to know you and your business. And your tech stack and your site. And the more time we spend with it, the better we're going to get to know it. And you know, the time that our developers have worked for a site for two years, et cetera, a project manager on that site, they know, they know the situation.

Right. Um, and so that's often why, and you've seen in, in handoffs or when clients move agencies, you know, it's, it definitely has to be the right move because it's bulky, it's expensive. And if you don't have the proper documentation, you having to get to know a site, And all of its, you know, quirks, uh, to start [00:28:00] with.

And so that's why we really emphasize the quarterly and the recurring because it allows us both from the, let's say qualitative level to get to know the client and the site and plan for long term just had an account meeting this morning to think about, okay, what is our goal for 2025 and what is, you know, the theme for each quarter.

And then from even a quantitative side, we're able to within reason. Be able to look at like, okay, maybe this quarter we're going above your quarterly, but then next quarter, you don't have a lot going on because of your seasonality. So it works out or vice versa. We need to, you know, adjust because we're lower this quarter and higher that quarter.

So it also allows for. Just more month over month, quarter over quarter, year over year planning, which I think provides better efficiency, both in terms of the actual work itself and the investment, both from the client side and then the investment for us in terms of the time. And then just to quickly touch upon what you said, you know, freelancers, consultants.

I think it's important to [00:29:00] have. You know, good boundaries when it comes to pricing and plans, um, to value your work and to understand that, you know, when you have a minimum, you know, there's always going to be that extra time that spent that you're not necessarily going to bill for, especially in the business development stage.

And I think it's important to have that minimum because it, it sets. The expectation for the client that it's there's going to be work required, and I think when clients expect something not to be way more expensive than it is, but just to know that, okay, this is what our range is. I think it helps build maturity on both ends.

Rather than just saying, okay, here's one hour because I think everybody knows you charge for an hour, you probably spent two and a half on that to build that hour. So I think it's good and that's my advice to any small business owner is always raise your prices, but not just from a sense of jacking up the prices, but like value yourself, value your time, and then it actually builds, I think, mature long term relationships for both for both sides, which I think is [00:30:00] important.

Matt: Yeah, I've never seen a short term contract or plan ever go well within the WordPress world. Uh, I spent, uh, after agency life, spent a few years selling enterprise level WordPress hosting. Uh, as an account executive and man, like my, some of my like top clients who were just like always look at very price sensitive, let's say, and they would just bring on either freelance contractor after freelance contractor or try to do like a short stint, which I also understand like a lot of those clients were in like media margins were pretty thin.

So I understood why they were, why they were doing it, but it was always like just patchwork after patchwork, you know, as they moved along and then they get to like the sixth contractor in a year and they're just unraveling all the work from the last person. It's like, man, you should have just stayed with somebody long term.

We wouldn't have this issue. Passed through so many hands

David: and every time it does that, it adds complexity and scope and price. And that's, I think to kind of sum up on, on that note, that's something. And both even for, [00:31:00] let's say, personal budget as we start the year two, I think it's so easy for you and I to prepare and budget for the big items, let's say the 1, 000 You know, expense at home or the 3, 000 vacation or whatever it is.

It's easier to be like, okay, that's how much it is. And, but we don't account for the 50, the 25, the 75, the 125 that actually adds up to more than that big item. And so that's something that we always, you know, approach and share and kind of coach our clients. It's like, be prepared for the small things that add up.

Because that ends up to be more expensive than the big item that you're aware of, you know, how expensive and what work is required. So yeah, hope that's helpful.

Matt: Yeah, I can tell you I'm going down in a few more months to a friend's wedding in Florida and I have three young boys and my, I'm looking at the flights and I'm like, it's 4, 000 just to fly down.

My wife's like, ah, so what? We'll turn it into a vacation. I'm like, yeah, But you're forgetting, we've got three young boys and we could add up [00:32:00] all that stuff, you know, while we're down there. That 3, in flights is going to be like 10, 000 all in to go to this wedding. It's the small things that add up.

David: Well, it sounds like a good time, Florida this time of year, or any time.

Matt: Yeah, uh, David Reese, uh, from Vaulted Oak, vaulted oak. com, thanks for hanging out today. Anywhere you want folks to go to check you out, to say thanks, uh, or just head to the website.

David: Yeah, head to the website or find us on LinkedIn. Uh, we, you know, Try to do our best to share some thought leadership and industry insights about what we learn.

And that can be useful to agency owners, uh, clients, nonprofits, uh, the world at large.

Matt: Awesome stuff. Thanks everybody. Thanks for listening. It's the breakdown podcast, gravityforms. com slash breakdown.

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